 Boulderdash like webgame MAR 02 2002 20:28Alltime C64 Games Top 50 is updated MAR 03 2002 20:56New members for Role. MAR 09 2002 03:34New member in Noname MAR 11 2002 19:00Heavy Metal Deluxe delayed MAR 16 2002 17:04An IFLI Gallery is Now Open! MAR 19 2002 05:09Check out the songs from Machinae Supermacy (mp3) machinae.2y.net/ MAR 21 2002 21:20New Odin Tracker released APR 02 2002 00:19
[1] :
01. Mar 2002 06:17
Have a nice March everybody ;-)).
CreaMD
[2] :
01. Mar 2002 07:14
Now all Feb reactions are lost?
[3] :
01. Mar 2002 11:06
Click on "ARTICLES" in the left menu an check all beta news articles for older reactions (the cathegorised section is planned soon). Or return to January and check one of the first posted articles called somehow like February beta news.. there are all reactions on February.
CreaMD
[4] :
01. Mar 2002 15:09
Let’s hope March will be full of reactions too.
Hoth
[5] :
01. Mar 2002 19:01
Yeh, lets find sumthing interesting to discus!
I think latest trend, to tell your private life in demos, is patehtic! Get a live!
firedraggon
[6] :
01. Mar 2002 21:30
i don’t tell people about my private life in demos. Just all over IRC... and email... message boards... ICQ... newsgroups... come to think of it, maybe i *should* do a demo?! =-)
[7] :
01. Mar 2002 23:17
[sigh] now that’s for sure one of the most interesting topic to discuss about since i’m reading reactions on c64.sk... respect, mate.
[8] :
02. Mar 2002 09:41
It can be interesting to get an honest insight into some peoples lives. I don’t like the bullshit in some scrollers though :)
Stryyker
[9] :
02. Mar 2002 11:29
how do you know that they tell about their actual private life in their demos? there are some people who still got imagination left despite years of watching dycps and plasmas
hollowman
[10] :
02. Mar 2002 11:31
And after discussing this we can deal with the subject of 14 year olds who cant spell their "cool" handle, the word pathetic or write proper sentences ;)
hollowman
[11] :
02. Mar 2002 12:47
I can’t see the problem of people dealing with their personal life in demos. Afterall it’s the most direct way to express your thoughts and a theme you actually can put that extra touch to. The old ’ragging-image’ is kind of outdated imho. We’re growing older, thus a mature theme is an inevitable consequence.
[12] :
02. Mar 2002 13:56
The demo we are speaking about is full of pathos, but that doesn’t mean that it’s content or author are pathetic. It’s author tried to create a fabulation this time, and it seems that at least in one case his storytelling suceeded. Don’t you agree, Firedraggon?
Sander, yes sceners are over 20 and tend to take most of things more personally than ever before. but I wouldn’t be aganist if someone gave that ragging-image a propper treatment. I liked the salute to the scene in Drop The Basics and I wouldn’t mind if someone started to "demolish some more" with such a high style of imaginery. No, fake demos or various kind of fake behaviour won’t have any educational ;-)) influence on the people, but releasing a quality and well thought out production in such style, could make some positive impact.
CreaMD
[13] :
02. Mar 2002 15:57
To TMR: whats IRC?
To Hollowman: well is youre handle so "cool"?
firedragon
[14] :
02. Mar 2002 16:18
firedragon, its not cool but it turned out to be a pretty good description of me. and also i am able to spell it :)
anyway, you talked about a trend, give me some examples of demos following this trend
hollowman
[15] :
02. Mar 2002 17:27
I dont care about "trend". 64scene is lame.
firedraggon
[16] :
02. Mar 2002 18:03
>Yeh, lets find sumthing interesting to discus!
>I think latest trend, to tell your private life in >demos, is patehtic! Get a live!
>I dont care about "trend". 64scene is lame.
you dont care about trend but you think its an interesting subject to discuss? ok...makes sense:)
hollowman
[17] :
02. Mar 2002 19:20
64scene is lame.... then what the f*ck are you doing here firedragon?
shake
[18] :
02. Mar 2002 20:41
To shake: i try to improve "64scene" by help you with advise! U should be thankfull for help. But your not! This is big problem for 64scene, you should think about... So I leave now! bye...
firedragon
[19] :
02. Mar 2002 22:26
firedragon, what is your advice to us? me paint big muscle warrior slaying big snake? code large vector ok? pixel big tit vallejo womans and rescue lame 64scene yes no?
hollowman
[20] :
02. Mar 2002 22:38
when I was in scene, we ate dragons for breakfast.
firedragon: I have a place for you in my new group
The LaserBoys Co
dr.vector
[21] :
03. Mar 2002 00:08
;-)
CreaMD
[22] :
03. Mar 2002 03:37
Hollowman:I don’t mind seeing a bit of Boris tit action if done nicely :)
Stryyker
[23] :
03. Mar 2002 17:22
I thought all Floppy 2002 music entries were poor. Except for Goto80’s Italo demo.
[24] :
03. Mar 2002 23:39
Stryker: What do Boris Vallejo’s tits look like then? Thought he was a bloke...?
[25] :
03. Mar 2002 23:46
Sputnik?s Virtual Assembler for SuperCPU available for free of charge. This is a revolution! Thanx for this great news Protovision!
CreaMD
[26] :
04. Mar 2002 00:05
Heeey... that’s a nice feedback. :-) Well it’s free of charge, yes. Please don’t forget that it has AppreciationWare status, which means you can use it for free but the author wouldn’t mind a small donation... ;-) ...
But don’t worry about this, download it, try it, use it, give feedback and bug reports! Everyone codes differently, and surely some interesting bugs will show up. :-)
[27] :
04. Mar 2002 01:06
TMR:nothing like man boobs :) I meant the ones in his art.
Stryyker
[28] :
04. Mar 2002 12:00
Concerning VAss, will there ever be an update to VirtualAss 8 as well? I’m rather disappointed when I can’t port a plain 6510 source written in VAss 16 to VAss 8 (e.g. the old .tx vs. .text problem etc.). Haven’t checked the Protosite yet, so sorry in case this question is redundant.
Wotnau
[29] :
04. Mar 2002 19:56
Wotnau: JTR pointed out the same problem when porting VAss16 source code (back) to Turbo Ass... I guess Sputnick never thought of that someone would want to go that way! ;-) Thanks for your feedback, please put it into an e-mail and send it to jtr@protovision-online.de, as he collects all kind of feedback, questions and bug reports concerning VAss16. If you want to reach the author directly, use sputnick@protovision-online.de. He is working on a VAss16 support forum.
[30] :
05. Mar 2002 12:30
[Looks innocently at Stryker] really? Thought you were just revealing something about *your* private life s’all...? =-)
[31] :
05. Mar 2002 20:11
Blimey, I didn’t know people could do amazing demos on a Vic20?
Richard (Stressed) of TND
[32] :
05. Mar 2002 20:34
I wish my VIC20 worked. ;-(( But still Aleksi, how about making something for our beloved C64??? ;-)
CreaMD
[33] :
06. Mar 2002 09:19
I have a question to you. Is there 4kb compo at Forever party? I hope, there is one...
[34] :
06. Mar 2002 11:41
Bedrich: Sorry, the intro compo is 1K (4 blocks). See the Forever invitation article for more details.
Wotnau
[35] :
06. Mar 2002 13:48
"DragonWing" is very do-able on the C64 and Plus/4 - any chance of it if you’re reading, Aleksi...?
[36] :
06. Mar 2002 14:45
TMR, try to contact him directly.
CreaMD
[37] :
07. Mar 2002 23:29
hah that shining8 trailer rocks, very cool... how to get the final?
shake
[38] :
09. Mar 2002 01:22
Had a word with him CreaMD, looks like a Plus/4 version may be on the cards... =-)
[39] :
12. Mar 2002 19:15
CreaMD: how about putting Forever under Spotlight? It’s already vanished from the main page, and the party doesn’t deserve that, especially if I remember the months for which there was an ad for X.
Wotnau
[40] :
12. Mar 2002 19:18
;-))))
CreaMD
[41] :
12. Mar 2002 20:12
Erm, oops. It should be like this:
The overall JokeTro Compo Results:
==================================
1. Girls in Their Teens by Herring Line
2. Jinx by A.Eben
3. Yakuza (Hey Triad, you should see this) by Cadaver
4. Bit Box Boyz by A.Eben
5. Flush Inc By Richard/TND Congratulations goes to Herring Line for winning this season’s JokeTro compo. Your prize will be on its way to your Email account. (Heh, heh. Should be a laugh). Comiserations to those who did not win. Still, you can try next time. The next JokeTro compo will start some time in the Summer ;o)
Richard/TND
[42] :
12. Mar 2002 20:34
Thanx for info rich I will put the results up into news. Ouki? Could youi please send the link to the pack plz?
CreaMD
[43] :
13. Mar 2002 19:43
Will do this weekend ;o)
Richard/TND
[44] :
14. Mar 2002 18:00
I have suggestion for FTP sites maintainers. How about to setup separate directory for 2001, 2002 etc. releases, it could make life easier especially when one is trying to leech all latest stuff to be shown in demoshow..
CreaMD
[45] :
16. Mar 2002 01:50
agreed.
fed
[46] :
16. Mar 2002 11:44
most stuff is released at parties so just download from the party directories ending with 01 or 02
hollowman
[47] :
16. Mar 2002 16:59
Thatz not a bad idea!
Richard/TND
[48] :
17. Mar 2002 20:00
How’d Forever 2002 go?
Richard/TND
[49] :
17. Mar 2002 20:38
respect to the "girls in their teens"-cracktro! very interesting ideas presented there :)
hollowman
[50] :
18. Mar 2002 08:43
Yoho.. I hope to get release pack online tonight. I have a lot of packing to do as tunes are on 2 sides. I hope I’ll somehow manage to get them to one side. Have a nice day everybody and thanx for support.
CreaMD
[51] :
18. Mar 2002 08:45
Btw. few photos taken by speccy dude are here... http://zilog.sh.cvut.cz/~baze and also and release list goes like this. C64 34 tunes, 9 pix, 3x 4kb intros, 5 one-kilobyte intros, 2 onefile demos. Realtime compo: 6 entries. Other plattforms: Speccy: 22 tunes, 20 pix, 3 one-kilobyte intros, 7 demos. Atari: 3 tunes, 5 pix, 5 one-kilobyte intros, 1 demo Wild: 2 entries.
CreaMD
[52] :
18. Mar 2002 16:09
Right before Forever 3 I finished my civil service, so since today I’m unemployed and unwired. This means that I’ll have to temporarily quit my editor/grammar corrector job for the Portal. If you’re a native speaker or simply very good at English and would be willing to check for and squish the most evil grammar bugs at the Portal, I bet CreaMD would love to hear from you at creamd@c64.sk. To the rest of you I wave a temporary good-bye. Wish me good luck for finding a job.
[53] :
18. Mar 2002 17:01
Thanx for help with c64.sk grammar-bug-squishing. Your help was always appreaciated, even when it was not always mentioned. I wish you good luck with job finding and I really look forward to meet you after symmeka. Also thanx for being the master of ceremony at Forever 2002 and for all your hard work you did on the party.
CreaMD
[54] :
18. Mar 2002 18:59
About forever 3 music compo - I lost :)
Richard/TND
[55] :
18. Mar 2002 19:57
i don’t mind keeping an eye on the grammar when i get a chance...
[56] :
18. Mar 2002 22:33
TMR, I will contact you about this soon, thanx for kind offer.
CreaMD
[57] :
18. Mar 2002 22:45
ok music packed.. thanx to Pucrunch by Pasi Ojala, expect 1 side of musics 2/3 of side of gfx and 1 side of demo, 4k, 1k and realtime compo stuff... I couldn’t get it to take less.. ;-) It’s comming hopefully before midnight ;-)
creamd
[58] :
19. Mar 2002 20:38
When I watch the picture that won the Forever graphics compo, I feel like hurting someone.
[59] :
19. Mar 2002 21:36
Puterman, perhaps look at the time & devotion invested into that piece. You shouldn’t always search for the "art" in every single picture you see, some graphicians doesn’t intend to change the world with pixelling, but to entertain sceners or to show their talent. As far as I am concerned: respect, Leon! You’re just getting better and better, and I want more like these!
Although, we should really limit the compo pieces to one-screen, w/o any sound. We’re not making demos here but pictures for graphics-competitions...
[60] :
19. Mar 2002 22:01
WOW. It sounds as if you all had a great party. I wish I was there :) I’ve tried out all the Forever 2002 stuff. Great demos, pictures and music. Phew, I guess I did not do too bad in the music compo (13/34th place). I’d love to put a few Forever 2002 stuff on to the CS37 cover disk, if that’s okay with you - (Including the winning demo ’Gemini’ by Padua). Great work, and you demo groups deserve a pat on the back for being so talented on the C64. :o)
Richard/TND
[61] :
19. Mar 2002 22:04
I don’t really care much for art. I appreciate originality, but I don’t demand it. That picture makes me feel sorry for the guy who made it.
There are many examples of people investing time and devotion in things that have very few positive consequences, so that’s not really interesting.
I have a question for the people who make these graphics and tell us that pixelling skill is what counts, not the actual pictures: do you have to concentrate so hard on the pixelling that your mind goes back to the state it was in when you were 12? And just because you’re trying to do something that’s technically good, do you have to pick the same silly motives every time?
[62] :
19. Mar 2002 22:28
First of all, thanx for participating in compos, dudes. Puterman, I think I understand your point, but still, the picture is technically great and it can even be original compostion, not a conversion and that counts. Rich 13th place of 34 would be great for me, I really thought I will end a lot lower. Jailbird, now when I have a new cable for monitor for Bugjam (thanx a lot dude!) I finally see how great your graphic is, really thanx for support dude. Puterman thanx you for your Leaves, we couldn’t show the demo till the end ;-) and play all the scrolltext, but I’m sure there are few hackers who will read it till the end, I can’t be alone...
CreaMD
[63] :
19. Mar 2002 23:09
And btw. yeah, permission granted. I hope artists won’t mind.
CreaMD
[64] :
20. Mar 2002 00:47
I dont wanna double talk here, Puterman, you’re absolutely right about the originality
topic. The only thing I’d really like to see changed are these "sod off, you’re an unoriginal
copycat imbecile, the scum of the scene!"-kind of reactions. A very elegant alternative
could be "a tehnically great piece, yet quite cheap because of the fantasy-touch.
I would appreciate from [insert your favourite "copier" here] bringing up more of his own, than copying
Vallejo and co., because this graphician has magic in his hands that shouldn’t be
wasted for hundred-times-seen-before kitsch". Well, isn’t that a reaction that would
make the graphician _think_ instead of getting fucked up and leave everything as-is?
Waking up from this "cinderella-dream" was quite hard for me either, as during my first
5-6 years on the scene it became so usual to me to copy from others, I didn’t even
realised that it’s such a stupid thing to do, until Se7en drew up my attention to that.
Building critics (e. g. Art That Isn’t) are that will drive graphicians to
the right path. Drat, we can’t afford beeing rude and thumb down every artist that copies,
as most of the, so called, "copy-graphicians" are just helluva huge pixel-talents, still in a period
of learning.
[65] :
20. Mar 2002 02:46
I prefer people to do what they do best, so what if they copy/convert(not wire) stuff? If many different ideas are done then all the better. Not everyone is going to be original. GRG and Drax are pathetic musicians because they’ve done covers and stuff? There are many things released I don’t like and win parties yet I can understand why and many other people like them. How many people can be 100% original? To what depth to we need to go for something not to be copied? I check out some piccy and another piccy has same data for a 8x8 section, that is a copied pic?
[66] :
20. Mar 2002 03:33
That’s a good question - why is copying a picture frowned upon whilst covering a tune isn’t? Both can use the "technical achievement" argument, both can be poor or well executed. But hand pixeling a conversion of a picture is one step away from being Satan whilst the same isn’t true of covering a Hubbard tune. i’ve *never* understood that...
[67] :
20. Mar 2002 08:57
my opinion is: copy all you want to, just stop copying your jerk-off-magazines.
hollowman
[68] :
20. Mar 2002 09:28
My main point wasn’t about originality, as you can see if you re-read my second message above, it’s about the kinds of things you choose to draw. Naked, passive girls kneeling in front of elderly, male magicians, haven’t we had enough of this crap? I know it’s hard to appreciate the finer points of feminism, as it’s often very theoretical (or offensive), but the main points are pretty simple. But obviously not anything the C-64 scene would be interested in...
Read Hollowman’s comment, he manages to say what I was trying to say with 1/10 the number of words.
[69] :
20. Mar 2002 11:46
The first part of this no.1 picture shows pretty much what the problem is, the woman, her expression...we all know where this esthetic is copied from. "Technically brilliant"...what does that matter if the picture itself shows something which is totally against your belief? would you guys vote for nazipropaganda if it was well made? i guess not. but since we are only dealing with sexistic pictures its ok,nobody cares about that, right? well, some of us do.
I was pretty pissed off at dreamhack 2000 when two 13 year old girls were sitting by their computers while an older guy sitting right next to them was watching porn on his pc. "boys will be boys" as the girls said, sure...if they dont grow up. Showing off porn on your computer , or showing off pixelled pictures with estethics copied from porn. i dont like either. But sure, the scene is conservative, lets go on like we always have and then sit and wonder why there are so few girls in the scene.
hollowman
[70] :
20. Mar 2002 12:11
Some people don’t have common sense. Personally I don’t use any stuff that could commonly be called sexual/pornographic and can understand when the scene was 14 year old boys but most of us are beyond that now. Although much art of the past seemed about nude women. I’m a bit different to many though. I’m normally careful not to offend women when present.
I thought Katons piccy was the best.
Stryyker
[71] :
20. Mar 2002 12:21
Common sense varies with the context. In the C-64 scene it’s common sense that women should be submissive and don’t wear much clothes.
[72] :
20. Mar 2002 12:36
I don’t think this is the reason why there is so few girls in the scene.
CreaMD
[73] :
20. Mar 2002 12:59
It seems that here we go again with the pornography x freedom of expression x immaturity x etc. stuff. As this is the second time already only at this Portal, would some of you guys be interested in a common brainstorming - or whatever other kind of brooding over it - on this topic (let’s say in the IRC or via mail) whose outcome could later be published in our mag Dawn?
[74] :
20. Mar 2002 17:47
Lol, I just relised how terribly offended I’d feel if the scene would be a woman’s world with me as one of the very few males, and the girls would just keep and keep pixelling naked mans. Gees what a nightmare! 8)
[75] :
20. Mar 2002 17:58
Hmm..let me express my opinion. I think the artist is successful if he/she can be proud of the work also later, and the longer the proudness lasts, the better. So if someone can be proud of pixeling naked women also manymany years later :) then why not...
Myself I have some problems with that proudness with my games, usually "gold turns to shit" a few months after release :) BOFH:Servers Under Siege being an exception, because it’s 100% pure asskicking!
[76] :
20. Mar 2002 18:11
;-)
CreaMD
[77] :
20. Mar 2002 18:21
Wotnau: "freedom of expression"? That doesn’t have anything to do with this, right?
CreamD: No, a couple of hundred of sexist pictures isn’t the only reason why there are so few girls in the scene, but they, as well as the attitudes that produce these pictures, are part of the reason.
[78] :
20. Mar 2002 19:16
CREAMD, SAGE/Exon, and da rezt of da scene :)
You done brilliant tunes. CREAMD, you deserved being 2nd place out of the 3. I thought some of these cover renditions were excellent. Rhythm of the Night rendition by Sage had to be the best cover.
SAD/Padua has some original style for his tunes. Good stuff too.
Richard
[79] :
20. Mar 2002 19:16
this isnt about freedom of expression, i’ll let your countries law handle that. i do know that tittie-pixelling isnt the reason why there are so few girls on the scene, the c64 scene is old and when i got my hands on the machine computers were the boys playground and territory, and theres no reason, years later to support a style in graphics that strenghtens this attitude. You got your freedom to do whatever you want to, but why i write these posts is because i want to point out things that some people may not have thought about before. I first considered this issue a few years ago at a party when a very computer interested girl asked us to turn off the crap we were watching. the crap was courtesy of soviet.
hollowman
[80] :
20. Mar 2002 19:59
Hmmh, why don’t people start drawing naked men instead? I don’t think anyone would care if I drew a picture with a man being dominated by another man (except those claiming I’m gay). But if I use an image of a naked woman, then suddenly I’m immature and stuff... weird
britelite
[81] :
20. Mar 2002 20:07
Hollowman. Cool story, but she could say the same about technically oudstanding demos like Access Denied, Comalight 12 or theme demos like Red Storm, The Last Tractor, or latest Drop The Basics (you should maybe shorten that dancing sequence or add more effects ;-)), because there is a big chance that she didn’t feel any special attraction towards C64 production at all. However I still believe that a well-thought-out production is attractive independently of plattform, and I’m sure future C64 demos will go this track. Timewaster, although very very unsatisfactory as far as length is cocnerned is an example of such universal approach. If I think about this more maybe I could fins few more.
CreaMD
[82] :
20. Mar 2002 21:01
There’s nothing wrong to images of men being dominated by women... =-)
[83] :
20. Mar 2002 22:54
creamd, i really dont see what you are talking about? what in red storm or drop the basic is offending for a woman? in what ways have i expressed degrading or sexistic opinons in my demo? or have you totally missed the point?
britelite, yes naked men as a reaction against all nude girls thru the years could seem like a good idea(which i used in manhood2) but if you go in with that style and if other people copy it might backfire, if people forget what the original idea was and just see it as objectification of the male. This will however hardly happen in this scene since its dominated by heterosexual males who probably wouldnt start using naked men in demos as a piece of attraction.
hollowman
[84] :
20. Mar 2002 22:57
"Hmmh, why don’t people start drawing naked men instead? I don’t think anyone would care if I drew a picture with a man being dominated by another man (except those claiming I’m gay). But if I use an image of a naked woman, then suddenly I’m immature and stuff... weird"
Unfair to aliens. :)
Richard
[85] :
20. Mar 2002 23:02
Hollowman I perfectly understood your point, sorry for the complicated sentence. Simply, I said that she probably didn’t care about c64 demo production anyway and she could possibly say the same about the demos I mentioned.
CreaMD
[86] :
20. Mar 2002 23:21
britelite: you totally miss the point. A picture of a man dominating another man would be a curiosity, and it would even be considered as original. Women being dominated by men, though, is something completely different, it’s just another small part of the oppression of women in our society.
CreamD: Try to take the discussion seriously. Your last two messages are completely pointless.
And still no one has managed to produce an answer to my question, so I’ll repeat it: if you only concentrate on the pixelling technique, why do you have to choose the same stupid motives all the time?
[87] :
20. Mar 2002 23:26
puterman complains about a picture of naked women in the same passive positions as always=> puterman must have been upset because the pictures were copied.
a girl doesnt like courtesy of soviet. could it be because of the content in the vallejo rip offs, or the other images of muscular persons showing off their bodies in a way that would give any aryan warrior a happy smile? no. it must be because she wouldnt like any c64 demo at all.
i dont see why you keep wanting to make this discussion take another turn, is it because you think what puterman and i said was silly and isnt worth talking about, or dont you see what its about at all?
hollowman
[88] :
20. Mar 2002 23:32
Didn’t Icecream Castle or something have some male with a huge dick? Not what you mean but... :) It doesn’t worry me although I prefer no nudity as PC is in the family room and the c64 was too. Can have awkward moments :)
Stryyker
[89] :
20. Mar 2002 23:37
Creamd: Exactly what would you like to add?
This is the problem, some people just want to extend their demos by filling them with senseless crap just to make them longer. "Pushing" stuff.
And I can’t see any point in doing such a thing. Rather, stick to the subject, whatever that might be... design, concept, theme, a certain look... whatever.
Besides, it’s just a small production, and it’s ok (just as puterman stated in "leaves") to release smaller demos.
I would like to see some more experimental stuff from graphicians like (for example) jailbird. Dude, I think you’re wasting your talent. :)
.... graphicians > Stop satisfying others, start satisfying yourselves. (and by that I don’t mean that you should start wanking) ;) ... I mean, come on, isn’t it boring to pixel the same kind of stuff over and over and over and over and over and over andvoervoaovervooeooeroeroerv and over again?
fed (aka mfl/triad)
[90] :
20. Mar 2002 23:50
I don’t want to turn discussion about too away, Hollowman, just some of your deductions and examples are daemagogical. Epecially that one about Girls being demotivated from joining the scene by the sexistic production. There is not many girl-bikers, not many girl-stamp-collectors, and in my whole life I met only one C64 girl programmer live. I really think problem is in the way how girls are brought up. If they were led to programming and art there would be more of them in these areas, but they aren’t. We will have to wait for the next generation which will be brought up by revolutionaires like you. And as far my pointless messages is concerned I really don’t see anything wrong on my views. Majority of C64 demos are boring for non c64 audience and it doesn’t matter whther they are technical or mathematical. Speccy and Atari and of course also PC sceners don’t understand what is technicality behind our demos and what are mathematical limits of our machine. Manhood2, Drop The Basics, & Second Reality were the most attractive demos shown at ForeverIII. Why is it so? Maybe because these demos have some sort of universality in them.
CreaMD
[91] :
21. Mar 2002 00:10
puterman: why is women being dominated by men different from men being dominated by men/women?
britelite
[92] :
21. Mar 2002 01:04
The problem i see here is that even if i were to sit down and produce a demo where female domination was the primary theme (an idea that has occurred in the past) i’d *still* be opening myself up to criticism because i could be accused of objectifying women. i’d be fascinated to know how the complainants would feel about a picture featuring one woman dominating another, if M/m is okay wouldn’t that be too?
[93] :
21. Mar 2002 09:06
britelite: please read my last message again. It’s there. Last sentence of the first paragraph. But I’ll explain it again, as it seems you haven’t heard about any of this stuff before (like less than 10% of the CEOs, professors, prime ministers etc. being women): women are being oppressed in our society (no, not only in Afghanistan). Men are not (certain men are, but not for being men). Pornography, prostitution, men’s violence against women, computer nerds doing silly demos, it’s all part of the big picture. And one of the factors that sustain this oppression is the constant denial of it by those who have the power to change it, eg. us. Like when someone says "but what’s the difference between using a picture of a naked woman and using a picture of a naked man?"
CreamD: So what you’re saying is: "Girls haven’t been brought up to dig computers, like boys have, so there’s no chance that we’ll ever have more girls in the C-64 scene, so we might as well keep producing demos with pictures of naked girls."
I’d really like to know what it is you guys are defending. The great traditions of using pictures of naked girls in C-64 demos? That Dutch Breeze is the best demo ever made? That porn is just fun for everyone, and if you don’t like it you don’t have any sense of humour? Please, enlighten me.
[94] :
21. Mar 2002 09:29
puterman: the main argument against pornography is that it is "degrading to women" (not a claim i dispute in the case of a lot of mainstream pornography, merely a quote) but what you’re advocating with the M/m imagery could be considered as degrading to men and the old saying "two wrongs don’t make a right" kick in about here. Remember the fuss over the artwork for Palace’s "Barbarian 2" where Maria Whittaker was pictured semi-naked and how nobody said a word about the guy in the picture wearing even *less* than she was? That’s a blatant double standard, just as much as allowing a M/m image on curiosity/novelty value would be - if you have to rule out pornography in demos, you have to be consistent otherwise you make yourself look an arse.
[95] :
21. Mar 2002 11:36
The main argument against porn isn’t "degrading to women". At least this is not my argument. I think that sex and love are closeley connected. What happens in porn is that these two things get disconnected although they should not. This generally leads people to accept sex without love. I myself cannot argument about this, I just feel that it is wrong. And in this case, I also do NOT agree to "if it doesn’t hurt anyone it is ok". It isn’t - we should not abuse one of the most beautiful things given to us.
[96] :
21. Mar 2002 12:20
puterman: yeah, ofcourse I understand what you meant. BUT, when speaking of pictures and pornography or whatever, there SHOULD NOT be a difference between who’s dominating who. just because our society is oppressing women (which I don’t think is good in any way) doesn’t mean it’s ok the other way around. And if I’m not allowed to paint naked women then noone should be allowed to paint naked men either (but then again, I couldn’t care less if a bunch of women started painting pics of naked men and using them in demos, as long as the pics are good ;).
britelite
[97] :
21. Mar 2002 13:59
So what you?re saying is: "Girls haven?t been brought up to dig computers, like boys have, so there?s no chance that we?ll ever have more girls in the C-64 scene, so we might as well keep producing demos with pictures of naked girls." Puterman your argument is very cheap and not very polite. If you read carefully you could see that I don’t defend anything, as I just try to subvert some cheap deductions (I’ve already explained myself so I don’t feel like to repat it again, just read more carefully). And as far as Dutch Breeze is concerned, it’s not my favourite demo and I don’t even have it in my collection. My favourite demo is That’s the wave it is by PD.
CreaMD
[98] :
21. Mar 2002 14:03
Or think of it in a marketing way. A large portion of the scene demographic is male. A bit of female nudity may get their attention. What’s the point of most demos if no one except the author watched? I’m not saying what is right or wrong but I know I’d prefer to be first in a competition than last.
Stryyker
[99] :
21. Mar 2002 14:08
Hey, girls can be stupid too, just like us :)
I bet many katons and valsaries have amazed
some teengirls with their fantasypic-drawing (add male dominance here) skills.
But seriously; most of us are grownups now.
Our belowed scene has nothing to offer to the rest
of the world, apart from small amount of individuals
we’re showing our demos to. I think that at this point
we should be "educating" each other. Think of what you do. If you put your heart on soul (really?) to a piece of demo or a static image, wouldn’t it be good if it
could offer something for the rest of the (slowly decreasing) c64 scene? Thumbs up for hollowman, puterman, sander, tdj, and everybody who are
What is a demo? At first it was a technical demonstration, of what the coder (most important), musician or graphician and the commodore 64 machines itself, could do. Ok. Limits are somewhat found already.
for dummies: demo for a technical purpose only is useless!
damn comformists!
....Thematicly, most demos are pointless.
I wont get into the "old demos with dragons and naked ladies are stupid and useless" -conversation, because
nobody was complaining then. Why complain now?
That dragon-period is long gone, even if some of you are
trying to hold on to it.
I’ve been wondering about these issues for a long time.
It’s hard to realize how narrowminded many of the so called "demoscene graphics artists" are. There are millions of great pieces of visual art in this world, to start working on (let’s say copying), but seems like majority are using other demoscene pictures as references.
Ok. This one was messy.
tempest
[100] :
21. Mar 2002 14:11
I accidentally erase a big part of my text...
short version "..hollowman, puterman, sander, tdj, and everybody who are trying to keep their ideas and demo-concepts honest and fresh."
tempest
[101] :
21. Mar 2002 14:11
Another thing I noticed at school, most females were not interested in taking music writing or computer programming for their content. Even the art classes seemed to be mostly females. Still no excuse to disuade females from joining and trying. How much PC scene stuff has such sensitive material? How many females there?
Stryyker (again:)
[102] :
21. Mar 2002 14:25
creamd, you still haven’t answered my question?
fed
[103] :
21. Mar 2002 14:32
eating coke...
dr.vector
[104] :
21. Mar 2002 14:33
Fed I would like to add length and widht. Like with musics, it’s just like 1 minute 2 channel music for me. It can have great content and say it all, but it’s just too short and too flat. But it’s just my personal opinion and I don’t say it’s not great and valuable demo, I just wish it was "bygger" ;-). Eternal respect to Sander, TDJ, and that Musician... hm.. Mindflow? ;-) for their great piece.
Roman
[105] :
21. Mar 2002 14:38
"Thematicly, most demos are pointless. I wont get into the "old demos with dragons and naked ladies are stupid and useless" -conversation, because nobody was complaining then. Why complain now? That dragon-period is long gone." I second that.
CreaMD
[106] :
21. Mar 2002 15:14
Roman(tic): The tune is only a few seconds long. You could say it’s just a small loop that changes one tone per "try". and the reason why it’s 3 patterns, is just to give sort of an "failing" impression. Nothing special really but I think it does the job.. And yes, talking about design - YES, minimalism is quite "flat" and simple - but hey, consider this - Maybe that’s the charm of it? makes sense? no?
fed
[107] :
21. Mar 2002 15:44
some of you guys really make me wonder sometimes. "there SHOULD NOT be a difference between who’s dominating who". is it really that important if you have the freedom to dominate another person? do you think it is common that people feel an urge to opress other people to be turned on? what next? ’is it ok to slap a woman if women can slap men to?’ perhaps? really, thinking in those directions doesnt head anywhere, i dont see why you think its important to bring this into the discussion.
the naked male body is rarely used as a piece to gain attention and appreciation therefor i would probably not see a naked man in a demo as something sexistic, but the female body keeps getting exploited, and certain "art" is following this cheap tradition. appealing to peoples lowest instincts to get appreciation/votes/whatever. This view on the female is not something i want to contribute to.
To give you an example of how general images can affect peoples view on men i will give you once again a story from real life (hey creamd! prepare to write "hollowman,nice story")
At the time right before i was going to be examined for the military duty i talked to alot of people around me, i felt very strongly that i was never gonna have anything to do with the army. I have no interest in learning how to kill another person. Lots of people in my class said "awh, military duty sucks but shooting guns will be fun". When i talked to girls about this and i said "i dont ever want to touch a gun" they usually responded with "oh really? why not?" as if the typical male should be fond on learning how to wound and kill his brother man.
I am very strongly against promoting stereotypes, especially when those stereotypes lead to so much negative things. wether its the image of the submissive woman or the aggresive man.
you all can carry on with your commercial stuff. Act as if a sexistic piece of art is the best we can accomplish on this machine. Go ahead. But in my eyes you are bunch of wankers, in more than one way. I want to be able to show the top productions on c64 to grown up people without feeling ashamed. This platform doesnt have alot to show that could interest common people, but i believe there is a progress going on in this field.
hollowman
[108] :
21. Mar 2002 16:06
hollow: what I was trying to say is that dominating another person is ofcourse wrong, but neither is more wrong than the other...
britelite
[109] :
21. Mar 2002 16:10
and why don’t we all stop arguing here and make some prods instead ;)
britelite
[110] :
21. Mar 2002 16:13
What’s wrong with dominating someone, some of us... erm, some people happen to *like* being dominated!
[111] :
21. Mar 2002 17:47
Bleh.. What the hell is wrong with people? When I joined the scene in the 80ies, demos was all about coding cool effects and showing nice graphics. There were never supposed to be any deeper meaning or political statement in it. It was just for fun. To me, that is STILL what demos is about. Take your god-damn politically correct shit elsewhere.
Oldtime scener
[112] :
21. Mar 2002 18:03
Exactly, when you joined the scene in the 80’ies.
fed
[113] :
21. Mar 2002 18:33
All this fuzz about "conceptual demos" is also something that alot of sceners apparently seem to missunderstand. In my opinion a ’conceptual demo’ can be anything based on some kind of theme. Not neccesarly a political message. It can be anything from a certain look to (for example) political messages. The most important thing is always to "stick to the subject". (whatever that might be)...
fed
[114] :
21. Mar 2002 18:55
Hey, I’m an ’oldtime scener’ as well, joined the scene in ’86 and used to enjoy the hell out of ’real’ c64 demo’s, but to be honest: I think the depth of today’s demo’s is far more interesting in the long run. But I guess some people never want to grow up, right?
Tdj/Focus
[115] :
21. Mar 2002 19:20
Ofcourse I meant ’grow’ instead of ’grow up’. Meaning that I for one, tend to like other things than I did 15 years ago.
Tdj/Focus
[116] :
21. Mar 2002 19:23
I think if anyone is writing a scroll text. It should be made more interesting to read. I would not want to see all these moans and groans on scrolltexts, as it would make the text plain right boring. Wasn’t the main scroll text idea for demos supposed to be used for credits an greetings list? - Just curious.
Richard
[117] :
21. Mar 2002 19:55
Fed, I agree with your views on Timewaster. Hollowman, I like your story, and yes, there is too much clich?s (stereotypes as you say) in our world and your story illustrates another one. I was also in army and it was a negative learning experience in the field of human meaness and aggressivity. "This platform doesnt have alot to show that could interest common people, but i believe there is a progress going on in this field." Yup. Oldtime scener: "If the movement, that is any movement is lively enough, perhaps it is moving, even when it’s not moving agains anything" (Gertrude Stein) ;-) I believe, that after all those years, this movement is starting to move in the right direction and to *something*. It doesn’t have anything to do with political corectness, but rather with the fact that people try to communicate their political/life views. Fed: I agree with what you said about conceptual demos. TDJ: Thanx for joining in the debate ;-) Yeah! ;-) Sorry for explaining your own pun, but I couldn’t resist. ’Grow up’ is like getting older and being allowed to drink and smoke after all those years of restrictions ;-)), and ’grow’ as moving forward. Very good one!
CreaMD
[118] :
22. Mar 2002 00:49
hm..must read the whole discussion, but its nice to see that some 100ed reactions start to become normal....
creamd: about the forever-music thing, if you have not get my mail: Your sins may be forgiven.... (anyway it was more my fault than yours 8)
pi
[119] :
22. Mar 2002 15:51
My oppinion about scrolltexts...
There’s nothing like reading a funny scrolltext. Groups should be bragging about they’re skills. Scrolltexts should be long and good english is important. The best time to read a scrolltext is when there’s some kind of bad weather. Thunderstorms add a cool atmosphere (as long as your inside the house in front of your screen). The best place to be when reading a scrolltext is in your bedroom or a basement or an attic. It’s best when the room is filled with all kinds of techno-junk (computers, computermags, spaceships, timemachines etc...). The best subject of a scrolltext is nothing. Reading about someones random thoughts entertains me more than reading about coding.
But that’s just my oppinion about that.
Hoth
[120] :
22. Mar 2002 16:12
I’ve got nothing against conceptual demos, but in my view, the concept is not as important technical side.
Say for example that we have two demos.
One features great code (but no certain ’theme’) and the graphics consists of some IFLI "Chicks’n’dragons" type of pictures, made with great technical skill.
The other demo features some mediocre code, and standard bitmap pictures but has some kind of ’concept’ and tries to convey a ’message’ or whatever.
Well, to me the first demo is certainly what I consider the better and I will probably watch it again. But I’m guessing some people here are of a different opinion.
Ah well, the C64 scene is not so big, so there’s place for people of all opinions. Let the people who enjoy ’coneceptual’ stuff develop and enjoy that, while others produce and enjoy ’classical’ stuff. I see no reason that either of these factions should try to exterminate the other.
Oldtime scener
[121] :
22. Mar 2002 17:16
Oldtime scener: although I disagree with your point of view, I have respect for the way you correspondend it this time. Much better than your previous message which bordered a bit on the fanatic side ("There were never supposed" -> says who?, "Take your god-damn politically correct shit elsewhere" -> why?). By the way: occasionaly I still am touched by a technical demo, but it’s nothing compared to the shivers Hollowman’s last one gave me. To me that’s the difference between a nice product resulting of a hobby and a work of art.
Tdj/Focus
[122] :
23. Mar 2002 11:42
Reading all this makes me load up CP DEMO.
[123] :
23. Mar 2002 11:59
When I see demo with naked girls I blush. Some of my friends see me watching demo and say "Paig, we never thought you were young porno-watcher". I feel very ashamed of this. So you stop doing these kind of pictures!!!
IF you want copy other pictures no problem. But with this picture - go other place!!!
/Paig Saghamullit
[124] :
23. Mar 2002 12:08
I have many naked girls here at my place
dr.vector/megahawks inc
[125] :
23. Mar 2002 12:11
If you don’t understand porn you don’t understand life.
[insert nickname here]
[126] :
23. Mar 2002 14:52
Anonymous poster: If you write comments like this you probably don’t HAVE a life! :)
[127] :
23. Mar 2002 20:07
Rendering and functionality in new browsers as Mozilla / Netscape 6 and Internet Explorer 6 is finally corrected. Mea culpa.
CreaMD
[128] :
24. Mar 2002 00:35
Porn is misunderstood by a lot of people, without porn we wouldn’t have a lot of the enlightenment that society claims. Speaking as someone with an unusual... er, variation as regards sexuality, the reason main-stream interest has done nothing but help our cause by exposing people to it.
[129] :
24. Mar 2002 00:36
Rats... slight edit to read "recent main-stream" - too late and been moving stuff around in cars for the last two days... =-)
[130] :
24. Mar 2002 12:43
Tmr: Moving your pr0n magz? ;)
fed
[131] :
24. Mar 2002 16:54
I would not exactly cool the artwork on the C64 porn. To my point of view, I would call it art work, due to the fact the demo artists draw these images themselves. The images are not real people, but imaginations of various people. For example, take various demos for example. The pictures of naked people drawn are artistic talent.
Pornography is something completely different. It’s real photos of naked people.
The C64 game ’Storm Lord’ and ’Deliverance’ has naked women in the game’s background.
Richard/TND/Protovision/Trackstars/Civitas
[132] :
24. Mar 2002 17:23
Hi Richard, what is Trackstars? Never heared of it before.
[133] :
24. Mar 2002 19:37
fed: Yeah, wanna buy...? Hardcore D/s porn mags, only a tenner a piece and eight to you. =-)
Richard: The line betweeen "art" and "porn" is a difficult one, porn doesn’t have to be pictures and even text can be pornographic (ASCII porn, anyone...? =-) i don’t have a problem with any pornography personally, but that’s just me...
[134] :
24. Mar 2002 22:23
Trackstars is a C64 .SID/.PRG music group of composers. Featuring me and a few scene friends. The site is not updated yet.
Hey, and isn’t cover renditions for party compos supposed the cheating? Heh, heh ;o)
Richard/TND/Protovision/Trackstars/Civitas
[135] :
25. Mar 2002 04:29
Btw. in that Yodelking and Ul-tomtens quiz I’ve recognised 8 tunes, but I’m sure there are some crazy dudes who know more. Btw. I really appreciate that they included the demotune from soundtracker_64 ;-)) Were there more tunes made in this tracker btw?
CreaMD
[136] :
25. Mar 2002 21:26
I don’t know what you’re talkin’ about CreaMD. I could not download the Yodelking and Ul-Tomtens tunes. It’s broken link!
Richard
[137] :
25. Mar 2002 23:58
I think it was released at Floppy 2002 the tune. At some party anyway.
Stryyker
[138] :
26. Mar 2002 00:07
Rich, I’ve told them to send me the correct url (it worked before), I will correct it.
CreaMD
[139] :
26. Mar 2002 23:57
hm..just some dumb idea i just got...
As most of c64 scene doesn?t seem to publish anything if there isn?t any competition, what about running some competition from time to time on c64.sk? just like there was when the goattracker came out? Like for example a cybertracker music-compo as a beta-packer is out now..or somekind of intro-compo? would be great, especially if the compos would be theme-based what would also make voting be easier.
Well, just an idea....
pi / church64
[140] :
27. Mar 2002 14:42
Partyradar: LCP is missing, apparently it’s taking place on July 20th/21st.
http://www.lcp.c64.org/
anonym/padua
[141] :
27. Mar 2002 15:22
Thanx Frank, partyscope updated.
CreaMD
[142] :
27. Mar 2002 17:03
thanks!
anonym/padua
[143] :
31. Mar 2002 18:15
Will any more demo/scene parties do any compos to make a 32k small game, like last year?
Richard
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